Wiring short

Carl L
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Wiring short

#1

Post by Carl L » Wed May 13, 2020 9:03 am

I've been using lockdown to progress the installation of all the point motors (pm's) on Neptune Street's good yard, 10 in total. The two images show an overview of the points in the yard and the two points providing the entrance into the yard from the goods loop.

Image

Image

No track feeds have been connect.

All the pm's (Seep PM1's) have been installed, wired through to a control panel and controlled by toggle switches. With all the pm's tested and seen to be functioning well, the time came to start connecting the track feeds. This is where the image of the yard entrance junction is relevant; the top point is a Peco electofrog, whereas the bottom point is a Peco insulfrog, both function well. Being new into the DCC world when I started this project and believing that the layout needed 'zones', straight after the electrofrog point on the short section of track between the points I fitted two insulating track joiners to create a yard zone. This short section of track was the first to have track feeds wired up. With both points set for straight roads, there were no issues, but with the electrofrog point thrown towards the yard as soon as the insulfrog point is thrown to make the link into the yard a short occurs and the whole system shut down. When the bottom point is restored to the strainght road, power is restored.

I have tried reversing D & E feeds on the insulfrog point pm's (as per Brian's pervious advice re polarity issues) but this does not help. I do note however that the two pads of the pm's face in the same direction, as these two points face each other is this wrong and causing the issue?

My thoughts now are to disconnect all the pm's, install all the track feeds, and then one by one, reconnect each pm in turn to see where the fault lies. Or is there a more straight forward answer/solution/fix?

Has my system of construction, i.e. Installation of all pm's prior to track feeds, been ill conceived?

As a good few man hours have been put into this I am a little frustrated to say the least and besides I'm itching to move on from wiring.

Apologies for the lengthy post but there was no real quick way of explaining the issue.

Once this is sorted, as I've said before I can get on with the scenic side of things and start posting further images.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Carl

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Steve M
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Re: Wiring short

#2

Post by Steve M » Wed May 13, 2020 10:27 am

The electrofrog will need insulating track joiners on both legs of the V. Did you fit them?
I’m not a complete idiot, some pieces are missing. ;)

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Re: Wiring short

#3

Post by Carl L » Wed May 13, 2020 10:48 am

Steve,

Yes they're fitted to both legs.

Carl

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Brian
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Re: Wiring short

#4

Post by Brian » Wed May 13, 2020 10:55 am

I have shown in both images where Insulated Rail Joiners are needed by the red lines.
You also need to ensure that all outside rails are to one feed and all inside rails to the other feed its very easy to get them crossed over!
Image

Image
Are you using the SEEP PM1 contacts for frog feeding? If so, I would after completing the above suggestions and all proved correct, disconnect all frog wires on each PM1and re apply power. If the short has now gone then one or more PM1 'D' & 'E' connections are the wrong way around. To find out which, reconnect one PM1 frog wire and test If OK move onto the next but if a short occurs swap that 'D' & 'E' wires. Then move onto the next PM1 and do the same until all are reconnected.
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Carl L
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Re: Wiring short

#5

Post by Carl L » Wed May 13, 2020 12:06 pm

Many thanks for the guidance Brian, looks like another night of testing.

Regards

Carl

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Re: Wiring short

#6

Post by Carl L » Wed May 13, 2020 4:20 pm

Brian,

Decided to start the testing early.

Red and black feed checked and correct.

Insulating joiners installed as per diagram. All F wires removed for yard points.

Point 1 (electrofrog) - F wire reconnected, D & E wires connected and checked as correct (if they are swapped over it shorts for the rest of the layout).

Point 2 (insulfrog) - F wire reconnected, D & E wires connected. When the point is thrown to the crossover the short occurs. If the D & E wires are swapped the short occurs again when the point is thrown. With both D & E wires disconnected the short still occurs when the point is thrown. The short occurs irrespective of which way point one is thrown. The point motor appears to be making a full throw.

Not sure where to go now. When it is the only feed in the goods yard zone, it can't connect to the rest of the layout because of the two insulating joiners at point 1, what is it shorting against?

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Brian
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Re: Wiring short

#7

Post by Brian » Wed May 13, 2020 4:45 pm

Carl L wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 4:20 pm
Brian,

Decided to start the testing early.

Red and black feed checked and correct.

Insulating joiners installed as per diagram. All F wires removed for yard points.

Point 1 (electrofrog) - F wire reconnected, D & E wires connected and checked as correct (if they are swapped over it shorts for the rest of the layout).

Point 2 (insulfrog) - F wire reconnected, D & E wires connected. When the point is thrown to the crossover the short occurs. If the D & E wires are swapped the short occurs again when the point is thrown. With both D & E wires disconnected the short still occurs when the point is thrown. The short occurs irrespective of which way point one is thrown. The point motor appears to be making a full throw.

Not sure where to go now. When it is the only feed in the goods yard zone, it can't connect to the rest of the layout because of the two insulating joiners at point 1, what is it shorting against?
I dont understand your Point 2 comment? Insulated frog points do not have a frog wire, therefore there is no wiring on Seep PM1 D, E or F connections on any Insulated frog point!
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Re: Wiring short

#8

Post by Carl L » Wed May 13, 2020 4:57 pm

I use the F wire to change the LED route indicator on the control panel. So do I not need D & E wires? But even with these disconnected the short still occurred, but against what?

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Brian
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Re: Wiring short

#9

Post by Brian » Wed May 13, 2020 5:44 pm

Hi
From the two pictures supplied there are only 3 Electrofrog points or are there more? The three being where Ive shown red lines which have to be Insulated Rail Joiners (6 IRJs for 3 points). There no other Electrofrog points than these three?

Confirm that all Seep 'F' wires that go to the Electrofrog points frog, have all been disconnected all at one time and the short was still present?
Carl L wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 4:57 pm
I use the F wire to change the LED route indicator on the control panel. So do I not need D & E wires? But even with these disconnected the short still occurred, but against what?
If you're using Seep D, E & F for LED illumination this should not have any effect on track feeding, unless you're using the track power to feed the LEDs? How are you wiring these LEDs? If you have DCC track power on both D & E with F going to an LED how is the LEDs return path connected?
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Carl L
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Re: Wiring short

#10

Post by Carl L » Wed May 13, 2020 7:49 pm

Brian wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 5:44 pm
Hi
From the two pictures supplied there are only 3 Electrofrog points or are there more? The three being where Ive shown red lines which have to be Insulated Rail Joiners (6 IRJs for 3 points). There no other Electrofrog points than these three?

Confirm that all Seep 'F' wires that go to the Electrofrog points frog, have all been disconnected all at one time and the short was still present?
Carl L wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 4:57 pm
I use the F wire to change the LED route indicator on the control panel. So do I not need D & E wires? But even with these disconnected the short still occurred, but against what?
If you're using Seep D, E & F for LED illumination this should not have any effect on track feeding, unless you're using the track power to feed the LEDs? How are you wiring these LEDs? If you have DCC track power on both D & E with F going to an LED how is the LEDs return path connected?
To answer the above;

Yes there are only three live frog points as you have indicated, with six isolating fish plates as indicated. Of the two points at the bottom of the picture, only one is currently connected, the one on the far left of the image, and with its F wire disconnected, the short still occurs.

Attached is the wiring diagram for the pm's and LED's which so far has been successful with all the other points on the layout (12 electro frog and 8 insulfrog). The same power bus is used for track feeds and LED's, I'm not sure what you would call the return path for the LED's?

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