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Old 11-01-2017, 02:00 PM   #1
Batrapyr
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Default SR HALs

I want to model Southern Region in the post-war period and need to include EMUs (3rd rail) but am having problems locating suitable stock. Hornby currently have a DCC Ready 2-HAL 2 car EMU (unfortunately in BR colours). However, in prototype these units were often run in multiples (i.e. 4 car or 6 car). Not really wanting to splash out on 3 motorised sets from Hornby, at 149.99 a time, is there somewhere that I can lay hands on non-motorised versions of these carriages? Or, indeed, any of the other Southern Region EMUs (BEPs, etc.).

Apologies if any of the terminology used, in this post, is incorrect. My level of ignorance knows no bounds!
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Old 11-01-2017, 03:19 PM   #2
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Hatton's still have stocks of 4 variants of the 2-HAL available - 3 @ 62 (all post-war variants) and one pre-war at 104.

http://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/S...rchfield=2-hal
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Old 11-01-2017, 05:16 PM   #3
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I want a lot of Southern EMUs on my layout. Surprisingly Hornby have not made a non-powered 2Hal or 2Bil set. I had already made a Phoenix kit of a 2Hal, long before Hornby did and have three as yet unmade Branchlines/Kirk kits of 2Hals which I now intend to build unpowered to run with my four Hornby and the Phoenix one.

DC kits sell kits of 2EPB, 2Hap and 4Cep units which can be made up as non-powered.

However for strict accuracy and in real life EPB stock cannot run in multiple with pre War stock because the control systems are very different.

For those who are interested the SR multiple units which could and couldn't run together are -

Group A - Pre-War suburban & semi fast types - 2Bil, 2Hal, 2Nol, 3Sub, 4Sub, and 4 Lav (and departmental units converted from Group A) all can run with each other but NOT with any other types.
Jumpers - 1 power, 1 control & 1 lighting to be coupled between units.


Group B - Pre War Express type, 6Pul, 6Pan, 6Cit, 5Bel, 4Cor, 4Buf, 4Gri, 4Res, all can run with each other but NOT with any other types.
Jumpers - 1 power and 1 control to be connected between 4 coach units. 1 control only between a 4 and 6 car unit, and 2 control jumpers between two 6 car units.


Group C - post War 4DD - only with itself. Jumpers 1 power and 1 control.


Group D - post War Suburban with Electro-Pneumatic brakes, - 4EPB, 2EPB , may run on multiple with themselves and group E but if mixed working at least 50% of the motor coaches must be Group E. Jumper - 1 control only.

Group E - post War Express with Electro-Pneumatic brakes - 2Hap, 4Cep, 4Bep, 4Cig, 4Big, 4Vep, MLV may run on multiple with themselves and group E but if mixed working at least 50% of the motor coaches must be Group E. Jumper - 1 control only.


4Rep is able to run with group E stock but no more than one additional motor coach shall be attached in multiple to the 4Rep unless all the additional motors are isolated. 4Rep will normally only work with 4TC units. Class 33/1, 73 and 74 locos may run in multiple with 4Rep and TC stock but if a 4Rep is in the formation the locos may only use diesel power .

SR DEMUs may NOT run in multiple with EMUs (Apart from modified 3H set No 1111)

Last edited by LC&DR; 11-01-2017 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 11-01-2017, 06:43 PM   #4
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There is a Yahoo Group for this specific topic

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...tions/messages

The following Yahoo group deals with the SR, but not specifically for modellers which is covered by the above group.

https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/grou...tions/messages

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Old 11-01-2017, 10:04 PM   #5
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Thanks LC&DR for a comprehensive list.

For a while after the Bournemouth electrification went ahead, there was a late night departure from Waterloo consisting of Class 33 + 4TC + 4VEP, with the 4VEP running normally off the 3rd rail. The train divided at Basingstoke, with the 33 + TC going to Salisbury and the 4VEP to Southampton.

With Kernow's forthcoming 4TC it will be possible to recreate that combination with a Heljan 33/1, Bachmann 4TC and a Hornby blue 4VEP. The 33/1 should overcome any traction issues with the 4VEP!
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Old 12-01-2017, 08:33 AM   #6
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For those who may not be familiar with Southern Region electric operation the services were frequently timetabled for trains to run as a single train from London to an intermediate station (Woking, Staines, Purley, Haywards Heath, Strood, Swanley etc.) where the train would divide and separate sections were sent to different destinations. On the way back they would join up again. The need to couple and uncouple quickly was important. Trains down to 1951 used traditional side buffers and screw couplings which were operated by a shunter at track level, as were the air brake pipes. He then had to climb up to detach or attach the various jumper cables. New trains introduced in 1951 were completely redesigned. The screw couplings were replaced with 'Buckeye' knuckle couplers operated by a lever which could be reached from the station platform. The air brake pipes were repositioned from the buffer beam to just under the driver's window, also easily reached from the platform, and the extra jumpers which were used for power and lighting were dispensed with and a new single 27 way jumper under the driver's window provided instead. These new trains was fitted with electro-pneumatic brakes in addition to the Westinghouse Air brake and were coded EPB or had a code ending in P to distinguish them. Joining and dividing at intermediate stations was considerably faster and safer with post 1951 stock.

For twenty years or more the old and new trains operated side by side, but because they could not operate in multiple, old with new, care had to be taken not to bring them together on the same service.


Then in 1967 a step further for the Bournemouth electrification saw even more flexibility. The line from Bournemouth to Weymouth was not electrified at first and the trains were to be hauled to Weymouth by diesels and propelled back. The coaches for this service looked like EMUs and had a driving cab at each end, but didn't have motors. They were however fitted with an EPB jumper to connect the driving controls to the locomotive. From Waterloo to Bournemouth the train was pushed by a special high powered EMU coded 4Rep. These had nearly 3000 horsepower of electric motors, compared to 1000hp of a normal 4 coach EMU. A typical train consisted of a 4 Rep at the London end of the train and , 2 trailer sets (4TC) at the Weymouth end. At Bournemouth a diesel locomotive would be attached to the Weymouth end of four of the coaches (1 x 4TC) which was uncoupled. The 4Rep and a 4TC set would wait for the next train from Weymouth propelled by another diesel loco which would attach, and after the loco was uncoupled, the freshly formed 12 coach train would proceed to Waterloo. Diesel locomotives were some of the class 33 1550hp Bo-Bos modified with additional EP jumper cables and control systems especially for these services.

For a while some of the class 71 locomotives were modified and provided with a diesel generator set and re-classified 74 Electro Diesel. These could be used as a power unit for the 4TC sets, or on ordinary coaches, and were used on services to Southampton Docks and in extra services to Bournemouth.

Because all these trains were fitted with EPB control gear and jumpers in theory they could all operate in multiple. However there were power considerations. Too many motors in the train would overload the power supply. A 4 Rep was nearly at the limit, so if one of these was included only one more 2 car unit could be coupled to it. A formation with a diesel locomotive (or an Electro Diesel) was allowed, but Electro Diesels had to be on diesel power. This was however useful especially overnight where engineering works might require the power off.

One other unusual unit was the Motor Luggage Van. 10 were built for the Kent Coast electrification scheme. These had batteries in board which were kept charged by the third rail. They operated in multiple with other EPB stock and could also operate as locomotives on light loads. The batteries allowed them to work over non-electrified sidings such as Folkestone and Dover harbour lines. Unlike other EMU stock they were dual braked and could operate vacuum braked trains too.
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Old 12-01-2017, 08:41 AM   #7
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Thanks, LC - another fascinating insight into SR. Do you have an encyclopedic memory - or lots of books/ or both? I am truly in awe of your knowledge and ability to post such comprehensive yet easily read responses. R-
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:36 AM   #8
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A bit of both really. I worked for BR from 1964, on the Southern at first then on the Eastern Region. I have been a railway enthusiast most of my life, encouraged by a father who bought me my first train set in 1951!

I do have a pretty large library of books and other publications (they occupy 7 of the walls of rooms in my home) as well as filling a large garden shed, but I do try and compose my posts from memory, perhaps checking the odd fact when memory fails. I have edited a number of magazines for heritage groups, and written a few books and magazine articles too.

My major interest is the Southern Railway and its successors but I have dabbled a bit in BR Freight wagons, and Industrial Railways.
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Old 12-01-2017, 01:44 PM   #9
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Well, it's a pleasure to know you (in a way) and have your presence on here. R-
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:14 PM   #10
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Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have submitted my request to joint the SR_diesel_electric_modeling group and will wait to see what comes of it.

Much of this topic got hijacked and transformed into a discussion about the lines to Weymouth etc, whereas my interest lies further east. In particular I am interested in stock that ran between Victoria and Portsmouth (dividing at Barnham) and on the South Coast line from Brighton to Littlehampton. I didn't really start using this line until 1966. At the start all trains were in multiples of 2 cars (not sure what types). Later on 4 car units (VEPs?) were introduced and I seem to recall that some of them had buffet cars. I also have a vague memory of seeing a Pullman (brown & cream) introduced in various sets but I have no idea how this could have been possible.

I would like to have modelled Littlehampton during a period when steam was still worked but electrification had been introduced (so after 1938). However, I wanted to retain the simple turntable but have yet to find out exactly when that was removed. Would artistic license allow me to retain the turntable but model the period after the war? I know that it was removed before 1942.
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